Internet Community: Blogs vs. Forums
An interesting conversation has erupted in the comments section of “Should ProBlogger Add Forums?” entry. The original topic had to do with Darren floating the idea of creating a forum to parallel his ProBlogger blog. Alot of folks chimed in on his poll.
More noticeable is a little “disagreement” that I have with Rachel from Cre8d Design. Specifically, Rachel posted this entry a few days on her own blog ago entitled, “Blogs & Forums: Different Ways of looking at the Same Thing“.
In her entry, and subsequently on Darren’s blog, she makes the argument that blogs and forums are exactly the same thing and the only difference is presentational. I don’t want to rehash the entire commentary made, but let me highlight my comment to Rachel where I make the point of explaining the essence of the difference between blogs and forums:
I read your post before seeing you link it here. While I agree with your basic premise that forums and blogs are identical in terms of content structure, let me disagreeably say you’ve missed the boat. In fact, the boat is halfway across the pond by now.
If you look at blogs and forums in the most simplistic sense, that of presentation, then yes the argument can be made that they are the same thing. Sure, you can drop a few plugins in and kermudjen the content to be more community based. Drop in a few guest bloggers or regular content editors for charity and you can call it a forum.
The reality is that structurally they are completely different. If you look solely at the entity of A site – blog, forum, news site, whatever – you’ll see two different main groups. Grassroots (remember, keeping the scope on the one site and not looking at broader topics like blogs and how they revolutionize journalism) and Centralized. Sites that have User-generated content (e.g forums and social networks) are grassroots. They are by the people, for the people. Sites that have a single (or confined) source of content are centralized (e.g blogs, news sites, camera review sites, etc).
They are not the same. If content is only defined as words, then yeah…blogs and forums are the same and mish-mashing display techniques can create one or the other. But content is not confined to words. It is also sources, histories, SME (Subject Matter Expertise) etc.
Therefore, you can dress your cat up like a dog and teach it to chase fire hydrants, but it will still be a cat.
Rachel continues her defense of her position saying (in essence) that the database is the same so therefore, the application is the same and it only needs to be changed in terms of presentation to make them difference.
In this, Rachel demonstrates her ignorance (not trying to be harsh with my chosen terminology) weakness in her knowledge of databases (Edited to lighten up on the tone) , and without getting overly technical, I’ll simply say that the database existence itself has nothing to do with what an application is. A database is merely a repository of data. For instance, in one database, you can have 1, 3, 5, 10 applications feeding off of it. Different tables, different data, different relationships between tables but the same repository of data.
She cites Drupal, which I admit I have no knowledge of, but would have to say that if Drupal stores blog entries and forum threads in the same database, then they are the exception to the rule and that this was a design decision at the application programming level. Most common blog and forum software products handle posts, threads and authors differently because the nature of blogs and forums are different, and as I mentioned to Rachel, I was an Advisor (Moderator) at SitePoint for 2 years and now have blogged for almost two years. I speak from some knowledge and experience.
Let’s look at what I mean by the two systems are different.
Forums
Forums are, by definition, central gathering points where pople come and discuss the topics of the day. In ancient Rome, the forum was like a marketplace where philosophers and thinkers as well as common folk would come together to talk and discuss. In the internet sense, forums are sites where people come and can begin the topics of conversation. Anyone can begin conversations on the topics appropriate to the forum and anyone else is able to respond. It is a grassroots “meeting of the minds” where the origin of conversation is decentralized and subsequent contributions remain decentralized. In database-speak, it is a many-to-many relationship.
Blogs
Blogs are a different animal. While it is easy to say they are the same because the content is discussion, looking deeper paints a different picture. The origin of conversation is centralized, in the case of a blog, or mostly constrained, in the case of a group blog. Like forums, however, subsequent conversation is decentralized. In other words, only a few people (or one) can begin topics (entries) and the discussion of the topic is open for the masses. ITs a one-to-many relationships
Presentation is not the Only Difference
Rachel is wrong in assuming that a blog can simply be changed in appearance to appear more like a forum and thus, make it a forum. Maybe in Drupal. Not in WordPress. Not in MoveableType. Not in Textpattern. Not in Nucleus. Conversations are stored in table differently. Conversations are conducted differently. If it is possible to have a forum with one or several authors, then perhaps her argument can hold up. But that is not possible because that defeats the point of a forum which allows the gathering of anyone together for discussion.
Likewise, there are forum software platfors out there such as phpBB, bbPress and vBulletin that would not behave like a blog if their lives depended on it. Because forum software is built around the idea of a forum being a forum, not a blog.
Simply changing the appearance of a site does not change what it is and what it should be and this is why I disagree with Rachel. On a sidenote, she is a hell of a designer and manipulates plugin use extremely well. Her idea is an excellent one if the problem is simply solving the preferences issues of blog readers who prefer reading in a forum format — but forum format dos not a forum make.
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Written by Aaron Brazell on February 2, 2006
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You’re most welcome to debate my points over at my blog if you like.
The database structure can indeed be the same, and more integrated blog/forum tools are moving in this direction as more people require this functionality.
I’m happy to debate this on my blog if you like, but I don’t believe it is necessary to debate someone by stating and wrongly assuming things about them such as “ignorance of databases” and going on about your own experience.
You’re most welcome to debate my points over at my blog if you like.
The database structure can indeed be the same, and more integrated blog/forum tools are moving in this direction as more people require this functionality.
I’m happy to debate this on my blog if you like, but I don’t believe it is necessary to debate someone by stating and wrongly assuming things about them such as “ignorance of databases” and going on about your own experience.
You’re most welcome to debate my points over at my blog if you like.
The database structure can indeed be the same, and more integrated blog/forum tools are moving in this direction as more people require this functionality.
I’m happy to debate this on my blog if you like, but I don’t believe it is necessary to debate someone by stating and wrongly assuming things about them such as “ignorance of databases” and going on about your own experience.
hi Rachel–
No, I prefer to debate this topic with my own readers (and you if you choose) here. This is why I posted it here instead of commenting on your entry.
Thanks,
Aaron
hi Rachel–
No, I prefer to debate this topic with my own readers (and you if you choose) here. This is why I posted it here instead of commenting on your entry.
Thanks,
Aaron
hi Rachel–
No, I prefer to debate this topic with my own readers (and you if you choose) here. This is why I posted it here instead of commenting on your entry.
Thanks,
Aaron
Hey Aaron,
I agree that there are Big differences between the two.
A Blog (Web Log) is omni-directional, even with comments it is still started from a central point (Blogger).
A Forum (open debate) is multi-directional, any one can open the conversation on any topic they choose.
Just my 2 cents
Joe
Hey Aaron,
I agree that there are Big differences between the two.
A Blog (Web Log) is omni-directional, even with comments it is still started from a central point (Blogger).
A Forum (open debate) is multi-directional, any one can open the conversation on any topic they choose.
Just my 2 cents
Joe
Hey Aaron,
I agree that there are Big differences between the two.
A Blog (Web Log) is omni-directional, even with comments it is still started from a central point (Blogger).
A Forum (open debate) is multi-directional, any one can open the conversation on any topic they choose.
Just my 2 cents
Joe
I agree too, Joe. My point wasn’t that blogs and forums are the same, far from it! The database structure is the same, so blog+forum applications shouldn’t be the saga that they are currently for many systems.
I agree too, Joe. My point wasn’t that blogs and forums are the same, far from it! The database structure is the same, so blog+forum applications shouldn’t be the saga that they are currently for many systems.
I agree too, Joe. My point wasn’t that blogs and forums are the same, far from it! The database structure is the same, so blog+forum applications shouldn’t be the saga that they are currently for many systems.
Certainly that is not what you convey as early on as your entry title…
“different ways of looking at the same thing”
Additionally, you say the database structure is the same. How are they the same?
In WordPress you have two tables that have to do with what a forum thread would be…. “wp_posts” and “wp_comments”.
JOINs are done on wp_comments.comment_post_ID=wp_posts.ID
In forums, these are all in one table that are interrelated to each other.
In blogs, every post has categorys. Categories can have subcategories. In a forum, you have forums and subforums, but the data passed around is completely different.
I still don’t see how you can stand by “blogs and forums are identical at the database level”.
Certainly that is not what you convey as early on as your entry title…
“different ways of looking at the same thing”
Additionally, you say the database structure is the same. How are they the same?
In WordPress you have two tables that have to do with what a forum thread would be…. “wp_posts” and “wp_comments”.
JOINs are done on wp_comments.comment_post_ID=wp_posts.ID
In forums, these are all in one table that are interrelated to each other.
In blogs, every post has categorys. Categories can have subcategories. In a forum, you have forums and subforums, but the data passed around is completely different.
I still don’t see how you can stand by “blogs and forums are identical at the database level”.
Certainly that is not what you convey as early on as your entry title…
“different ways of looking at the same thing”
Additionally, you say the database structure is the same. How are they the same?
In WordPress you have two tables that have to do with what a forum thread would be…. “wp_posts” and “wp_comments”.
JOINs are done on wp_comments.comment_post_ID=wp_posts.ID
In forums, these are all in one table that are interrelated to each other.
In blogs, every post has categorys. Categories can have subcategories. In a forum, you have forums and subforums, but the data passed around is completely different.
I still don’t see how you can stand by “blogs and forums are identical at the database level”.
Different ways of looking at and interacting with content stored in the same format at the database level. A relational database with a table for posts, a table for comments, a table for categories.
Different ways of looking at and interacting with content stored in the same format at the database level. A relational database with a table for posts, a table for comments, a table for categories.
Different ways of looking at and interacting with content stored in the same format at the database level. A relational database with a table for posts, a table for comments, a table for categories.
On one of my websites (a subscription based investment education site), we have a discussion forum as well as regular published articles from our resident experts.
While there is no major technical reason why we couldn’t just use the discussion forum for the articles, and indeed there are some nice extensions to vBulletin for exactly this purpose, we decided to keep the two very separate for exactly the resons Aaron mentions.
We wanted clear separation of the “premium content” being created by our experts (blogs), from the “generic content” being created by our members (forums). Note that I am not suggesting our member contributions are any less valuable – but the fact is that most of our members do come to hear from our experts.
By clearly separating the two, this enables us to more easily add extra value to the premium content – turning the normally linear format of a blog into an educational resource tool. The high volume nature of forums doesn’t lend itself well to this – there is simply too much “noise” to make learning effective from this type of medium.
To the discussion at hand, I do think Aaron is taking Rachel too literally and technically – and from Rachel’s comments I think she is looking at the problem from a much higher level. I can see Rachel’s point of view, and acknowledge that there are fundamental similarities between the two (indeed the mechanisms are much the same), and indeed you can in some cases use the two mechanisms interchangeably.
However, I do stand firmly in Aaron’s court for the reasons I stated above … and those reasons are in many ways more psychological than technical (although there are some very important technical reasons for separating the two as well).
On one of my websites (a subscription based investment education site), we have a discussion forum as well as regular published articles from our resident experts.
While there is no major technical reason why we couldn’t just use the discussion forum for the articles, and indeed there are some nice extensions to vBulletin for exactly this purpose, we decided to keep the two very separate for exactly the resons Aaron mentions.
We wanted clear separation of the “premium content” being created by our experts (blogs), from the “generic content” being created by our members (forums). Note that I am not suggesting our member contributions are any less valuable – but the fact is that most of our members do come to hear from our experts.
By clearly separating the two, this enables us to more easily add extra value to the premium content – turning the normally linear format of a blog into an educational resource tool. The high volume nature of forums doesn’t lend itself well to this – there is simply too much “noise” to make learning effective from this type of medium.
To the discussion at hand, I do think Aaron is taking Rachel too literally and technically – and from Rachel’s comments I think she is looking at the problem from a much higher level. I can see Rachel’s point of view, and acknowledge that there are fundamental similarities between the two (indeed the mechanisms are much the same), and indeed you can in some cases use the two mechanisms interchangeably.
However, I do stand firmly in Aaron’s court for the reasons I stated above … and those reasons are in many ways more psychological than technical (although there are some very important technical reasons for separating the two as well).
On one of my websites (a subscription based investment education site), we have a discussion forum as well as regular published articles from our resident experts.
While there is no major technical reason why we couldn’t just use the discussion forum for the articles, and indeed there are some nice extensions to vBulletin for exactly this purpose, we decided to keep the two very separate for exactly the resons Aaron mentions.
We wanted clear separation of the “premium content” being created by our experts (blogs), from the “generic content” being created by our members (forums). Note that I am not suggesting our member contributions are any less valuable – but the fact is that most of our members do come to hear from our experts.
By clearly separating the two, this enables us to more easily add extra value to the premium content – turning the normally linear format of a blog into an educational resource tool. The high volume nature of forums doesn’t lend itself well to this – there is simply too much “noise” to make learning effective from this type of medium.
To the discussion at hand, I do think Aaron is taking Rachel too literally and technically – and from Rachel’s comments I think she is looking at the problem from a much higher level. I can see Rachel’s point of view, and acknowledge that there are fundamental similarities between the two (indeed the mechanisms are much the same), and indeed you can in some cases use the two mechanisms interchangeably.
However, I do stand firmly in Aaron’s court for the reasons I stated above … and those reasons are in many ways more psychological than technical (although there are some very important technical reasons for separating the two as well).
I’d be careful who you call ignorant Aaron – I think Rachel’s proven to be anything but ignorant in her many years of web design. Hope this can stay conversational and that we can all come out of it learning something rather than making judgements over what each other does or doesn’t know.
I’d be careful who you call ignorant Aaron – I think Rachel’s proven to be anything but ignorant in her many years of web design. Hope this can stay conversational and that we can all come out of it learning something rather than making judgements over what each other does or doesn’t know.
I’d be careful who you call ignorant Aaron – I think Rachel’s proven to be anything but ignorant in her many years of web design. Hope this can stay conversational and that we can all come out of it learning something rather than making judgements over what each other does or doesn’t know.
Interesting debate, made me think a little. Darren, he didn’t call her ignorant, he said “ignorant of databases”. Correct me if i’m wrong.
Interesting debate, made me think a little. Darren, he didn’t call her ignorant, he said “ignorant of databases”. Correct me if i’m wrong.
Interesting debate, made me think a little. Darren, he didn’t call her ignorant, he said “ignorant of databases”. Correct me if i’m wrong.
Thanks, Darren. However “ignorant” may be percieved, it is meant in the strictest form of the word. Not knowing of what one talks. Does not mean stupid as pop culture uses it. And I did not say anything about ignorant about web design. I gave her props on that. I explicitly referred to database structure.
Thanks, Darren. However “ignorant” may be percieved, it is meant in the strictest form of the word. Not knowing of what one talks. Does not mean stupid as pop culture uses it. And I did not say anything about ignorant about web design. I gave her props on that. I explicitly referred to database structure.
Thanks, Darren. However “ignorant” may be percieved, it is meant in the strictest form of the word. Not knowing of what one talks. Does not mean stupid as pop culture uses it. And I did not say anything about ignorant about web design. I gave her props on that. I explicitly referred to database structure.
point taken although I still think ‘ignorant’ is a pretty harsh word to use to describe someone you don’t really know.
Dictionary definition of ignorant – ‘Lacking education or knowledge.’
This is not my experience of Rachel.
Now if you wanted to call someone ignorant of databases I think I’d be a much better candidate – but in comparison I’d say Rachel is pretty clever on the topic….
But then again – what would I know about it as I’ve already admitted to ignorance on the topic….
:-)
point taken although I still think ‘ignorant’ is a pretty harsh word to use to describe someone you don’t really know.
Dictionary definition of ignorant – ‘Lacking education or knowledge.’
This is not my experience of Rachel.
Now if you wanted to call someone ignorant of databases I think I’d be a much better candidate – but in comparison I’d say Rachel is pretty clever on the topic….
But then again – what would I know about it as I’ve already admitted to ignorance on the topic….
:-)
point taken although I still think ‘ignorant’ is a pretty harsh word to use to describe someone you don’t really know.
Dictionary definition of ignorant – ‘Lacking education or knowledge.’
This is not my experience of Rachel.
Now if you wanted to call someone ignorant of databases I think I’d be a much better candidate – but in comparison I’d say Rachel is pretty clever on the topic….
But then again – what would I know about it as I’ve already admitted to ignorance on the topic….
:-)
Edited to soften the tone. I certainly don’t want to have my chosen terminology in one phrase take away from, or become the focus of, this entry. If softening my tone maintains the focus of my point then I’m willing to concede the terminology. :)
Edited to soften the tone. I certainly don’t want to have my chosen terminology in one phrase take away from, or become the focus of, this entry. If softening my tone maintains the focus of my point then I’m willing to concede the terminology. :)
Edited to soften the tone. I certainly don’t want to have my chosen terminology in one phrase take away from, or become the focus of, this entry. If softening my tone maintains the focus of my point then I’m willing to concede the terminology. :)
Similarity one – both build community. As the webmaster of several web sites, I debate on whether or not to use a forum structure or a blog to build a community. Difference – blogs help to drive a topic while forums are a bit more open. Similarity – I could completely see the structure of posts and comments. Difference – I think that the user has more control in a forum – subscribing to favorites, user control panels, etc.
I think in the rawest form, blogs and forums have the same goals and user interface structure, but I feel that forums have more advanced features at this time.
Similarity one – both build community. As the webmaster of several web sites, I debate on whether or not to use a forum structure or a blog to build a community. Difference – blogs help to drive a topic while forums are a bit more open. Similarity – I could completely see the structure of posts and comments. Difference – I think that the user has more control in a forum – subscribing to favorites, user control panels, etc.
I think in the rawest form, blogs and forums have the same goals and user interface structure, but I feel that forums have more advanced features at this time.
Similarity one – both build community. As the webmaster of several web sites, I debate on whether or not to use a forum structure or a blog to build a community. Difference – blogs help to drive a topic while forums are a bit more open. Similarity – I could completely see the structure of posts and comments. Difference – I think that the user has more control in a forum – subscribing to favorites, user control panels, etc.
I think in the rawest form, blogs and forums have the same goals and user interface structure, but I feel that forums have more advanced features at this time.
I wish Rachel could have used something other than Drupal for proving her point. Drupal is the most rudimentary of forums I’ve seen in a long time. Comparing it to what I think of as a forum is like comparing a string and two cans to Skype. Drupal is not a forum. It’s not really a blog either, but it’s more a blog than a forum. I really like the software, but it’s not a forum (did I say that already?).
I wish Rachel could have used something other than Drupal for proving her point. Drupal is the most rudimentary of forums I’ve seen in a long time. Comparing it to what I think of as a forum is like comparing a string and two cans to Skype. Drupal is not a forum. It’s not really a blog either, but it’s more a blog than a forum. I really like the software, but it’s not a forum (did I say that already?).
I wish Rachel could have used something other than Drupal for proving her point. Drupal is the most rudimentary of forums I’ve seen in a long time. Comparing it to what I think of as a forum is like comparing a string and two cans to Skype. Drupal is not a forum. It’s not really a blog either, but it’s more a blog than a forum. I really like the software, but it’s not a forum (did I say that already?).